(no subject)

[tracy_loo_who]

Before I say anything else, is anyone going to Azkatraz looking for an HBP ticket? I won't be getting to San Fran till Friday, so I'm trying to sell mine..

Secondly, deancastiel is doing an Author Commentary challenge, which more folks should totally sign up for. :D If anyone happens to be interested in my ramblings on a particular fic, please fill out this poll... (PWPs excluded because come on, they're PWPs.)

[Poll #1429101]

Thirdly, remember when we used to talk about Dean/Castiel all the time? What happened to that? :( Let's talk about Dean/Castiel! More specifically, let's talk about issues with the pairing, because I'm about 8k words into my first multi-part fic ever and I want to deal with all the issues...

1. Jimmy. One of the biggest issues, but pretty self-explanatory.

2. Dean is Not Gay.

3. Sam will always be more important to Dean than Castiel, whereas Dean will be at the top of Castiel's list (God doesn't count). Some probably don't think this is an issue, but I'm a romantic at heart and this bothers me a little, what can I say?

4. I'm not sure Dean has a whole lot of respect for Castiel, really, apart from that one moment of "omg want your babies" when Castiel said "Yeah, well, we're making it up as we go." Castiel started out on some level way above Dean's head (I'm an angel of the Lord) and at some point fell to somewhere way below Dean (you poor stupid son of a bitch). It doesn't seem to me like Dean's ever considered him an equal, not even really in the hospital scene. Particularly in Lucifer Rising, Dean talked to him like he was a child, and sure, Castiel does resemble one in some aspects, but it's not exactly conducive to a romantic relationship, you know? Or even a friendship. Dean and Castiel aren't even friends yet, IMO, and I, for one, think that needs to happen before they can fall in love and all that good sappy crap. Well, Castiel is arguably already in love, even in canon, but it'll take some work to get Dean there.

Anything else?

Lastly, a mini-rant: If people think Castiel is boring because he has the emotional capacity of a cardboard cutout, fine, I disagree and couldn't give less of a shit about what they have to say anyway, but it's a valid opinion. If they think Castiel has the emotional capacity of a cardboard cutout and thus clearly Misha is a shitty actor, then I would like to say this to those folks: Fuck you, and I pity you for lacking the intelligence to realize that he's doing it on purpose because it's part of the goddamned role. I have more respect for Sarah Palin's inability to tell the difference between a chunk of ice on the ground and Russia because at least she was mostly-joking. ugh.

...And I think that about fills my wank quota for 2009. \o/ (Woke up grumpy because it was a Monday morning, oops?)

P.S. Go vote for Dean/Castiel at ship_manifesto! We're losing to Buffy/Spike! D:

Comments

[goth-clark.livejournal.com]

I want to address all these issues as well. I am writing a story right now that sort of addresses the whole Jimmy issue which I can't wait to tackle because it's such an interesting issue. i already did the whole 'but Dean isn't gay how would you make him be gay' in the last secret angel challenge story I wrote, but I still want to address the issue again and again because again it's interesting as a writing to try to make it work. It's a challenge and I love to challenge myself.

I pity you for lacking the intelligence to realize that he's doing it on purpose because it's part of the goddamned role.

Seriously! How can people not realize this?

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I really love all the different ways people come up with to deal with Jimmy beyond just killing him off somehow (which is fine, but I couldn't write it myself since it seemed pretty clear, in The Rapture, that Castiel needed him to be alive). So far my favorite is probably Castiel pulling in favors like Anna did and getting his own body, but like you said, a challenge is fun and that's not as much of a challenge as letting them stay together in one body.

Honestly, I think people do realize it, they just hate on him and will point to anything to try to validate their hate.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Thanks for voting!

Well, I don't want a way around that, necessarily, because I think Dean wouldn't be fundamentally the same if he didn't love Sam best, I just want to deal with it, I guess, in a way that's both fair to the pairing and true to his character.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I picked "Where All Paths Lead" first, though I would love to hear your commentary for all your fics bb. :)

1. This is an issue I find most interesting because the show did address the vessel part, but the ending seemed very sad that there's a lot of speculation on how this can be handled in fanfic. Many people come up with ideas of how to alter how it should have been done in canon, or work around the issue, but I don't know. It's kinda challenging to tackle depending on where one is going with the pairing and how they are to handle it.

2. I think this is also kind of self-explanatory, in a sense. We know in the show that Dean is a ladies man, though in fics I've seen people try to wing their way into him having sex with men by the "he's not gay, but curious" or even bisexual. I don't mind it so much, but mostly I want the explanations to be reasonable and realistic to Dean's character. For me, I think the logical this is that he's not falling in love with a man but the angel more specifically. Even though yes, Jimmy's vessel (going back to that issue) is what Castiel is currently using there's a difference between the two in their personalities and I think that if Dean were to fall in love with Castiel or, at least have a deep affection for him, it would be Castiel himself, not Jimmy. Does that make sense?

Re: 3 & 4: Yeah, I sense this as well. Someone had asked a similar question some time ago whether Dean truly respects Castiel, and I think to some degree, but not as much as Castiel does for Dean. There's still a lot of growth of trust that needs to go there. The thing is, in the show just when they get to that point of having an established friendship there's always something to set them back. We see that Castiel not only is attached to Dean, but genuinely likes him, has faith in him and, yes, even loves him canonically as you say. But as we all know, Dean places his family first, and there's been this dance between him and Castiel through most of the season. I agree, Dean hasn't really given the impression that he appreciates all that Castiel has done for Dean, and Castiel really has done everything because of him.

Though another part of me knows that that's how Dean Winchester is, that's his demeanor and personality. We know that Dean can be stubborn, and likes to argue and punch things (or others) because that's who he is. I'm not suggesting that Dean doesn't like Castiel, particularly in the finale because after all that he's learned, he knows that Castiel knows it's wrong but Castiel is still following orders in spite of it all. And Dean understands freewill while Castiel does not, and it's a conflict of their personal experiences and what they understand and don't understand. I do think that Dean can be a bit harsh with his words, but still that part of me believes that he's saying it out of affection, just like he does with Sam at times. I mean, I know that sometimes it might not seem like much and there is still something estranged between them a bit, but I do think that by the finale Dean does regard Castiel with trust and respect, more than before.

If they think Castiel has the emotional capacity of a cardboard cutout and thus clearly Misha is a shitty actor, then I would like to say this to those folks: Fuck you, and I pity you for lacking the intelligence to realize that he's doing it on purpose because it's part of the goddamned role.

THIS, THANK YOU. Of course I mistakenly went over to that dramafest, but I've seen this kind of around fandom for a while (even had a defriending a while back because someone on my flist had the exact same thoughts those people did, and thought I was overreacting by explaining politely my defense on Misha/Castiel), and seriously it's irritating. To not comprehend that he's acting like that purposefully for the part of an angel, particuarly an angel that is just understanding feelings and emotions, is just stupid. It's plain as day and if they can't see that, it's their problem.

[thandie.livejournal.com]

Hey there, out of curiosity, where is this post? I'm not going there and start a war or anything, I want to know what I need to avoid...

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks, love. :"> ♥

1. I am not so much a fan of altering canon (except in the case of HP's epilogue, omgstab), perhaps out of analness, and killing Jimmy off or giving Castiel a new body is just fine, but almost seems too easy, you know? I want Jimmy to still be there and for it to be messy and complicated and frustrating.

2. Yes, exactly, what you said about Dean falling in love with the angel enough to not care about the packaging. That's totally my favorite solution to this as well, and romantic shippy heart aside, I think it's also the most plausible one.

3-4. I guess, in all honesty, Dean respects Castiel as much as he deserves to be respected. Perhaps he doesn't appreciate Castiel as much as he should, but Dean was essentially right about Castiel being a "poor stupid SOB" when he said that, and earlier, when he'd asked if Castiel was a hammer. So I think now that Castiel's finally and firmly grown a pair, there will be a lot more respect from Dean in season five.

Re: Dean saying it out of affection -- omg, I love that. Dean may have been desperate because he knew getting through to Castiel was his only hope, but I think he genuinely does want Castiel to understand how things are and grow into himself, for his own sake. He's watched Castiel come too far not to be rooting for him, you know? And I guess that's what made the betrayal of finding out Castiel had known about the apocalypse all the more hurtful.

If you got defriended for defending Misha, I'd say that's a good thing, because I certainly wouldn't be able to stand having Misha-haters on my flist. It already makes me twitch (perhaps unreasonably) when people express their valid concerns about him, I might sprain something if I saw outright bashing. Actually I'm surprised no one's defriended me over that rant, hahahha, though I suppose if someone was going to defriend me over Misha it would've happened months ago. XD

harsh reaction below

[thandie.livejournal.com]

Hey Tracy, I was missing you.
I agree with your points, as you may remember, I too think that their relationship is unbalanced, but that makes it someway more epic and bitter-sweet...and imo this is going to change in season 5, if they don't throw Anna too much in the way of those two.

ARE YOU WRITING MULTI-PART FIC? OMG. And that's all I have to say on the subject, but the capslock is self-explanatory.

GOD, don't get me started on those idiots that have the COURAGE to bash Castiel...the ONLY point they have is that 'he's going between Sam and Dean omg blah blah gne gne', and the only reply I can have to that is 'fuck off and DIE'. That dead hollow space you have between your ears? That's where intelligent people have brains.

Sorry for the outburst, but I casually got caught in a I HATE CASTIEL post in a lj, and I gave myself an aneurysm to just leave and not tell her to stop talking shit. You can't hate a fucking character just because it finally adds some depth and variety to a show, that's just childish and ridiculous! And that's also the same think I say to Ruby-haters...you wanna tell me where this show would be without Ruby?! She was basically the thing that drove the plot forward till now!

No wait, there are people hating on MISHA? Now that's a surprise...

Re: harsh reaction below

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Aww, hey, I got busy again since classes and such started back up, but it's good to be missed. ♥

Yes, I do remember, and I love that they're unbalanced right now as well, because what's the point of shipping a pairing if they're too easy? Dean/Castiel is such an amazing ship because they seem so meant for each other, but there are all of these things in the way. God, I can't wait for season five.

Heh, I am, but I write so, so slowly, so I dunno when I'm gonna start posting it. That, and I'm unreasonably nervous about posting it, too. :">

*grins* It makes my heart swell when people stand up for Castiel. ♥♥♥ Seriously, though, I don't understand why they have to go out of their way to hate on us when we don't go out of our way to hate on them. Then again, they go out of their way to hate on each other, too, the Sam girls and the Dean girls, from what I've heard, loll, so whatever.

Yeeeah, that's why I usually avoid any places in fandom that aren't specifically Castiel-friendly, spending my afternoons in an impotent rage doesn't sound too appealing. Hahahha that's a really good point about Ruby, I think people just love to hate on her. And Castiel. WHY CAN'T PEOPLE JUST BE HAPPY WITH WHAT THEY LOVE? D:

[olympia-m.livejournal.com]

w00t!!!! a multi-part fic from you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would contribute something to the discussion but I'm still stuck on the MULTIPART FIC!!!!!!! to focus on anything....

sorry.... :)

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Hahahha I have no idea what I'm doing, though, honestly, and the thought of posting it actually kind of terrifies me for no good reason. -.-

[acreativemess.livejournal.com]

I chose Bits and Pieces (er...voted for it)cause I truly think it is one of your most beautiful stories.

I'll be back later to make my own comments on the issues you've addressed.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Aww, thank you so much! I'm surprised people seemed to take so well to that one, actually, since I was in one hell of a weird mood when I wrote it. :">

♥!

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'If they think Castiel has the emotional capacity of a cardboard cutout and thus clearly Misha is a shitty actor, then I would like to say this to those folks: Fuck you, and I pity you for lacking the intelligence to realize that he's doing it on purpose because it's part of the goddamned role.'
Anybody who thinks Misha is a horrible actor must have slept through The Rapture. I have a friend who didn't even know who Misha was until that episode aired (all she saw was Jimmy's 'don't take my daughter' scene) and now she wants to see everything he's been in. She loved Cas' entrance and when Misha was on CSI.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Your friend has impeccable taste, clearly. \o/ I think the haters are just in denial that he's an amazing actor, really.

[lallipoo.livejournal.com]

LOLOLOL ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS:

Dean will be at the top of Castiel's list (God doesn't count)

LOLOLOLOLOSLDKJF GOD DOESNT COUNT. Ahh you're funny.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

LOL WTF IT'S TRUE, CASTIEL'S NEVER EVEN MET GOD! Whereas he spends ages mooning over Dean, either from afar or from Dean's personal space.

[darksilvercat.livejournal.com]

*clings*

Stop leaving us!

And now I want to talk about Dean/Castiel, but it's way past my bedtime. And as for the 4 fic points, YAY! I'm tackling them all in my current WIP of course, but I look forward to your take on them too! I'm going to be away for a couple of days, but I'll be sure to drop in and discuss (and ensure you're not reading my mind again, because seriously, you need to stop doing that!) sometime soon!

[tracy.livejournal.com]

YOU'RE the one who's leaving us, apparently! *clings*

Hahha I don't think I'm reading your mind too much since from what I remember, your fic had a lot more blood and sex in it. *g* Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more subtle things turned out similar.

[ibroketuesday.livejournal.com]

1. I think it's easy enough to write around the Jimmy issue; kill him or have him consent or even have the fic from his POV - there are a hundred ways to do it. I appreciate fic where the fact that the body Castiel inhabits is really someone else's is dealt with in an honest and thoughtful way, but I don't go hunting down fics that don't with a flaming torch and pitchfork.

2. I agree that in canon, Dean is a happy straight man, but when has that ever mattered to slashers? :P It's easy enough to cast him as curious or loving sex enough to be willing to try anything, or, as rogueslayer452 said, to care enough about the angel inside that it doesn't matter about his physical form.

3. Yeah, you can't solve this one. You just have to deal with it.

4. I think Dean's disrespect for Castiel was a combination of external rather than internal factors: Castiel was allied with heaven, an entity that Dean didn't believe he could trust, and he didn't know he could trust Castiel to go against their orders; Castiel has not always done the right thing by Dean (at the time of the episode you mentioned, Lucifer Rising, he'd made Dean swear an oath of fealty, prevented him from going to Sam, and acknowledged that he was helping bring about the apocalypse), again, because of his orders and allegiance to heaven; the angels have done little but jerk Dean around, and Castiel is under their command. Dean sees much of what heaven does as cruel and wrong, and if Castiel won't stand up to them, then he's cruel and wrong, too. Despite all this, Dean had formed a tentative connection with Castiel, and he did trust him at least a little, enough to confide in him and call for him and when Castiel told Dean heaven's true intentions in 4x22, it wasn't just a revelation, it was a betrayal, because Dean had thought Castiel was on his side. Given this, I expect that a lot of the tension we see coming from Dean's side in regards to Castiel will evaporate in S5. Of course, it may likely be replaced by new tension as the plot progresses, but at least Dean knows where Castiel's loyalties lie.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

1. I can read fics in which he gets killed off or whatever, though I don't think I'd write it since it seemed pretty clear from The Rapture that Castiel needed him alive. It's much more fun to deal with when it's messy and frustrating and morally dubious.

2. Yes, I love the caring about the angel inside solution best, as sappy as it is. Perhaps because it's sappy, and I'm secretly a sap. And anyway, it seems the most plausible.

3. Well, no, I wasn't trying to resolve it, I wouldn't even want Dean to love Castiel more than Sam because that just doesn't seem true to his character at all, but I do want to deal with it in a way that doesn't make (the extent of?) Castiel's love seem quite as unrequited, either.

4. Right, I said this above somewhere, but I think that even though Dean doesn't appreciate Castiel as much as he should, perhaps he does respect Castiel as much as he deserves to be respected. Which, to be completely honest, wasn't that much until his final hour in Lucifer Rising, since Dean was more or less accurate in his assessment that Castiel was a mindless soldier. Of course Castiel wasn't mindless, but until he acted on it, he might as well have been? So, you're right, hopefully this will become something of a non-issue next season, since Castiel's got a huge pair now and Dean does give respect where it's due.

[strangeandcharm.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure Dean has a whole lot of respect for Castiel, really, apart from that one moment of "omg want your babies" when Castiel said "Yeah, well, we're making it up as we go."

YOU HAVE JUST MADE THIS SCENE A GAZILLION TIMES BETTER. ILU.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

LOL ILU2, SERIOUSLY THOUGH, DEAN WAS SO ♥_♥ OVER CAS IN THAT SCENE IT WAS RIDICULOUS.

[themadfish.livejournal.com]

Dude, if they've seen the episode with Jimmy, how can they think that Misha is a shitty actor?

1. I haven't really read any D/C fics, so maybe there's already one, but having a Jimmy point of view fic examining the whole D/C aspect would be interesting and illuminating. Hell, if there was a Jimmy not liking it in the background, that could be more angst fodder.

2. We're slashers. While good slashes try to follow canon for the most part, there is going to be some stretch. I like the idea that someone else mentioned how that it's the angel Dean falls in love with and Castiel just happens to end up with a male body. Aren't angels sexless anyway? Or does that vary with people's lore on them? Ok, now I'm amused by the thought that if Anna ever picks another body, and it ends up being male, and tries to hit on Dean...how would that go down?

3. Honestly, right now I think of that as at their current relationship, Sam is his family and Castiel is not. If there is gonna be Dean/Castiel, then eventually Castiel will become family as well. If the relationship progresses to this point, I can see Sam going, 'wtf, stop it' and make Dean choose Castiel over him. Because he doesn't always need his big brother doing everything for him. He obviously already finds it smothering.

4. I think it's more like Dean really hates the concept of Heaven and what Heaven is doing. Before when Castiel was blindly following orders, he definitely did not respect him. I think maybe it's because it's a lot like how Dean was with with his dad. I'm not sure if Dean even respects himself sometimes. Or if you want to go the route that Dead does fully believe in his past actions with trusting his dad completely, he'll eventually realise that Castiel following orders blindly is exactly the same thing.

All the people he loves seem to be the rebellious types, the ones that go and do what they think is right--his dad, Sam, Anna. With the last episode, Castiel defied Heaven for what he thinks is right. I think with that Dean will see Castiel as an equal.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

They're probably just in denial about how good of an actor Misha is because they love to hate on him, pfft.

1. There have been several from Jimmy's POV, yes! (Actually I wrote one myself, but it was a gen fic, so.) I do want there to be more resistance on Jimmy's part, though, having him give in too easily seems, well, too easy.

2. I'm not sure if angels are really sexless, since Castiel clearly has brothers and sisters, but maybe that's in deference to the vessel's gender? I mean, he had no problem possessing a girl. LOL at male!Anna hitting on Dean -- I think he'd run straight to Cas, in that case. XD

3. Really, I don't think there necessarily has to be any choosing involved, per se, I think Dean can make room for Castiel in his life without loving Sam any less. But I also can't stop wanting a scenario in which Lucifer's got both Sam and Castiel and makes Dean choose to save only one, just because I'm evil... *g*

4. Heh, for all of Dean's self-righteousness, he really doesn't have too much respect for himself, does he? :( Aww. But you're probably right, this issue of respect will probably take care of itself now that Castiel's given the finger to Heaven. I just want them to be friends in season five!

[themadfish.livejournal.com]

Voted for Dean/Castiel and looks like they're winning now.

Butbut, why is Crowley/Aziraphale losing to Elizabeth Bennett/Fitzwilliam Darcy?? I mean, I love both pairings but come on! It should be a closer match than Elizabeth Bennett/Fitzwilliam Darcy winning by twice as many points. I mean, you have a demon who didn't so much as fall as saunter vaguely downwards, and an angel that has become stereotypically British and runs a bookstore that he stores his collection of books in but rarely lets people actually buy the books. And when faced with the Apocalypse, they don't even really want it to happen, as they've come to like the world and humans thank you very much.

I mean, they're not as obviously hot as Elizabeth and Darcy, but they have their own share of awesomeness in their interactions and what they'll for one another and their arrangement.

And I could go on and on, but I'll stop now.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Yay, thank you, they won, they won! \o/\o/\o/

I guess a lot more people have read Pride & Prejudice than Good Omens? People were probably there voting for whatever their ship was, and then also just voted for whoever else they recognized. I haven't read Good Omens myself, actually, but I didn't vote for either.

[darkmagess.livejournal.com]

I've signed up, but you haven't even read the original! *pout*

It's going to take me a while to write commentary. Apparently I have a lot of background stuff going on when I write these things. Oi!

Also, wtf, people think Misha can't act? Since he's clearly NOT Castiel at cons, to what would they attribute the sudden change?

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I know, I know, I kind of fail at fandom now that classes have started up again and other people have more free time to hang out since it's summer, but I haven't forgotten, I promise!

Hahahha you've just given me the image of Misha being all Castiel-like at cons all the time, omg that would be pretty amazing, actually. !!

[timbitsu.livejournal.com]

Sorry for butting in, but I just wanted to say that I agree 100% with what you said in #4. We really haven't seen much reaction from Dean where Castiel's troubles are concerned. The first time he sees Cas again after The Rapture, he demands to know what happened to him and I thought maybe he cared, but then it turns out he just wanted to know what Castiel was going to tell him before he was dragged back to Heaven. =(

I don't necessarily think that Dean's selfish, but maybe thoughtless. He seems to take Cas for granted and doesn't pause to consider and really understand what Castiel has done for him. =/

[timbitsu.livejournal.com]

Aah! I don't think I've really talked to you in ages! And here I was thinking summer would mean more time for fandom. D:

Anyway, I picked Bits and Pieces because I'm interested in your thoughts on writing Jimmy's POV. =D

And I'm so excited that you're working on a multi-parter and that you're going to try and deal with all the issues. You've gone and listed the top four, I think, though I'd toss the whole falling question in there as well. You've already written fic where Cas doesn't fall, though, so maybe you've already addressed it? Anyway, Misha seems to think fallen!Castiel would make things more interesting, but I'm sort of stuck on the fact that when Anna fell, she was reborn.

As for the Castiel/Misha bashing, I don't understand it. >:( This is why I stick to deancastiel and spn_castiel.

(It's perplexing that there isn't more support for Dean/Cas in that poll. Where did all those people who voted for Castiel and Dean in the character polls go?)

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I thought so too, but apparently not! D: *cling*

Hahhaha, I'm almost wary of doing the commentary now because I get the feeling people are expecting deep thoughts from me, or something, and I don't really have any, lol. -.-

Right, I'd be a lot more comfortable with Castiel falling if I didn't think he'd be reborn too. That, and it seems like something they have to consciously do (rip out their grace) instead of something that happens by accident, or automatically, and I can't see Castiel wanting to fall while the apocalypse is going on because he needs his angel mojo. I mean, honestly, I can't see that there are any benefits to falling, at this point. He's obviously already capable of loving Dean..

I just don't understand why we get so much hate from the rest of the fandom in general when we don't hate on them. :( But whatever, they're easy to ignore, for the most part. I like to think there isn't more support for Dean/Cas in the anon meme (assuming that's what you meant) because we just can't be bothered to deal with their hate. I mean, I looked at a couple threads but didn't leave any comments of my own. *shrug*

[starlitshore.livejournal.com]

Hey, honey. Just wanted to drop in and say have fun in SF. ♥ Wish I could be there with you. Oh, life.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Seriously, Sarah, Sarah, WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITHOUT YOU? D: