Because this is what I do at 2 in the morning: I think about Dean.

[tracy_loo_who]

BSG post(s) to come later (god I feel like I'm spamming you guys so much, I never used to post this much, sorry!) but for now, I have this thing that I really really really want to get opinions on and discuss. PLEASE JUST HUMOUR ME, KAY?

We've all seen and had our hearts broken by Dean's borderline-suicidal need to save people at his own expense because he thinks he deserves whatever shit life can shovel at him. In Heaven and Hell he was ready to go back down there to protect Anna (some random angel girl he'd just met) and sure, he was calling Uriel's bluff, but I don't think he'd have done anything differently if the threat had been a serious one. And he'd probably do the same for any random victim-of-the-week.

Which got me thinking -- shouldn't he be more afraid? And then that got me thinking -- maybe he isn't terribly afraid, either because he knows he can escape torture and anyway part of him feels like he belongs down there with the other monstrosities or because he has faith that Castiel will come get him again. I admit the latter doesn't seem likely (yet) despite how much I would love for that to be the case, so I'll focus on the former. What would Dean do (WWDD, hahha, *shuts up now*) if he went back to Hell now and Castiel didn't come save him again? Hold out for awhile until he gives up hope on Castiel? Start right back up with the torture without resisting at all? Something else?

[Poll #1333665]
I guess, in the end, what I'm really asking is: we've all talked about the potential, but how has Castiel and this brief period of salvation changed Dean so far?

Also, also, a couple of Dean/Castiel recs.

- Insightful and eloquent manifesto by commodoresexual

- An Offer of Comfort (Gen) by izazov -- Out of all the fics I've read that could conceivably actually happen on the show, this is the one I want to see most, especially after Thursday's ep.

Let me just conclude by saying I am incredibly, incredibly proud of us Castiel fans for being able to carry on a discussion without dissolving into wank. ♥

Comments

[strangeandcharm.livejournal.com]

Gotta reply quickly cos I'm supposed to be getting ready for work (and I'm not letting LJ make me late again, dammit! ...possibly).

I think if Dean went back he'd fight even harder this time round. Psychologically, he knows God's on his side, and it would make such a huge difference; he'd be determined to prove himself worthy. And he's had so much time to regret what he did, to gather his strength, that I think he'd steel himself against going Dark Side this time.

Plus he got to see Sam's 'hurt puppy' expression when he told him he enjoyed the torturing. He'd never want to see that again, would he?

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Psychologically, he knows God's on his side

This is exactly what I want to think, too, but is his faith so strong already that he wouldn't abandon hope after X number of years?

And assuming he plans to gather his strength and steel himself instead of breaking -- I would think he'd be a hell of a lot more frightened and reluctant to subject himself to what he intends to be an eternity of torture.

You're right, though, for Sammy. If he could do it for anything, it would be Sam. :(

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Y'know, this also has been in the back of my mind, given his confession from "Heaven and Hell" to the most recent episode. I'm thinking he's most definitely terrified of getting thrown back into the pit, though his threatening to challenge anyone to toss him back is more of his stoic behavior than ever. I believe that while he's terrified of returning there, because of his deep self-hatred of what he'd done down there and feeling unworthy of being saved, he feels he now deserves to be thrown back, even if God Himself commanded he be saved.

Before he was willing to go to Hell for his brother, the self-sacrificing thing. Now it's more of his guilt, his shame and self-loathing of giving in too easily, of actually enjoying torturing of souls regardless of whether those souls deserved it or not. I think despite the fact that Castiel pulled him out, he just doesn't love himself nearly enough to think that he deserves anything other than pain.

For your question (I'm answering here...because I can, bb ;D), I'm not entirely sure how long he would have to break. However, as I mentioned, because he's feeling entirely guilty he probably feels he has no choice in the matter; there's no possible way to save souls in Hell as there are above ground, therefore if he returns to Hell it's like he's asking to be returned where he rightfully belonged because of his deeds. Had he been saved before giving into Alastair's offer would it have been different? Perhaps a little bit, though knowing Dean he feels like he's still unworthy but it wouldn't be has powerful as it is now.

I guess, in the end, what I'm really asking is: how has Castiel and this brief period of salvation changed Dean?

From what I can gather, it's evident there's still some fundamental changes Dean needs to go through and obstacles he needs to overcome in order to fulfill whatever mission he was brought back for. However, I think because all Dean's known was all sorts of evil and badness of the world, human and supernatural alike, that Castiel saving him was presenting a different kind of hope and salvation that there is something more out there, something that is Good to balance out everything. Before then Dean hadn't had much belief in such things like angels or Heaven or God (or if he once did, he repressed it after all he'd seen). Castiel was the first he'd been introduced to such concepts, and in this he's starting to gradually come to terms with those beliefs and perhaps even starting to have faith. There have been clues to this, such as Dean gripping the Bible in "Yellow Fever", and inserting "God" into sentences that he normally wouldn't have before. Also, having this bond between Castiel. While after the events of "Heaven and Hell" this might be a bit rocky even though I desperately want them to be bffs once again and trust in each other, Castiel did save Dean from his damnation and probably knows that Castiel knows what he'd done, however Castiel has yet to judge him because of that. Neither of the angels do, in fact. He was saved for a reason and we've been given a sense that Dean is slowly becoming well-aware of certain things, despite his memories of Hell.

I still feel that Castiel is going to be the result of Dean's absolution. That Dean needs someone to confide in, other than Sam which, during the two confessions he's given his brother it doesn't seem to be doing much good for his psyche. Dean is too damaged that even Sam wouldn't understand. But Castiel does. Castiel dove into the pits of Hell to save him, and probably had witnessed more than we know down there. Even though saying "I forgive you" over and over probably won't help, having Castiel console him into forgiving himself just might. I believe Dean isn't beyond saving at all, he just needs to stop and reconsider his feelings and put some faith into himself, into Castiel and into God and Heaven that he DOES deserve to be saved, that there is a reason he was pulled out for a greater purpose and he needs to forgive himself in order to achieve that realization.

And...I just started rambling and probably made no sense whatsoever, and went on a tangent or something from what you were asking so, I'm going to just stop before I'm ahead. Heh. ;)

[tracy.livejournal.com]

It just seems to me like he was more frightened of Hell in season 3 than he is now, whether it's for show or not. And, yes, I'm sure he thinks he deserves it, but people can and should fear even the most just of punishments. He should at the very least be displaying some sort of PTSD symptoms when threatened, but I guess we shouldn't get into that discussion concerning the writing.

I think it would've made a huge difference if he'd been saved before he broke. There'd probably be almost no self-hatred at all, because what could he possibly have to hate himself for? Other than the pre-s4 things that he was hung up about before, but those happened a lifetime ago and surely even he would think that forty years of staying strong in the face of extreme torture were enough to make up for them.

You're right, he does believe in angels now, and he even seems to believe in God. But if he came to think that they'd given up on him.. I don't know whether it would break his spirit completely and send him further down the spiral of self hatred and torturing others or if just knowing they're out there would be enough to give him strength to fight, even if he had to do it alone forever.

I still feel that Castiel is going to be the result of Dean's absolution.

For sure, bb. ♥ I don't think Castiel (or anyone other than Dean, for that matter) thinks what Dean did needs to be forgiven. I mean, thirty years, jesus. Dean himself is the only one he needs forgiveness from, and, yes, I think it's Castiel who will show him how to give that to himself. God, just thinking about how this could go on the show makes my heart swell.

[bloodyfire.livejournal.com]

hmm As far as dean goes. I would like to think that he would still last in hell this time cause he knows the pain of living with that guilt. so i think he'd still last a long time before breaking cause he's a moron like that. but it's hard to say cause if the pain is that unbearable he might break again I still think his resolve would hold at least 30 years if not more. i didn't vote but this is my thoughts

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I would like to think that too, but I still can't help feeling that now that he knows what Hell is like and how much it would hurt to resist, he should be a lot more afraid of going there than last season when Hell was just an abstract (if terrifyingly loom-y) concept.

[static-pixie.livejournal.com]

I'm such a cynic.

I honestly think that Dean would just go back to torturing souls straight off the bat. Because I don't think it was just the 30 years of torture kicking in when Dean talked about enjoying it. I think there were elements of Dean's life on earth in there, too, and that's why he's so ashamed. Because a part of human Dean, the one who remembered his life on earth (and clearly, even after 40 years, he didn't forget anything, not even the monikers Sammy would use to check into a hotel with) enjoyed torturing those souls. It's the same part of him that enjoyed decapitating that vampire in the first Gordon ep, that was so angry at his father in DaLD, that wrecked his baby with a tire iron after said dad put even more on his shoulders and then died, and that's been abandoned time and time again. The part that Dean represses so hard for Sam's sake enjoyed finally being able to screw someone else over for a change. That Alastair was so pleased with him even after he held out for 30 years tells you what kind of shit Dean must have put his victims through (Dean's nothing if not thorough) during the 10 he spent torturing them.

And Dean's so used to seeing himself in the worst possible light and to trying to lead everyone else into seeing him that way, too, and so maybe he felt there was some honesty in hell. He doesn't deserve to be saved because the Dean that tortures is the Dean Dean really believes himself to be. So I think that if Dean went back to hell, he wouldn't even bother getting on that rack, he'd pick up right where he left off.

As for what Castiel's done thus far - (wow I've written this three times now) I think he just reminds Dean of himself before hell, the good parts and the bad. He has orders to follow in a battle that's bigger than he is, but he's questioning them, like Dean did. Like Dean also, he takes pride in the fact that he's a warrior, that in following these orders, he's fighting for the greater good; his loyalty to God and not his own whims (unlike Uriel) is extremely important to him. It makes him a better parallel than Anna, actually, because Anna's choice was completely selfish and more like Sam's choice to go to school - good for her, but not so good for the folks she left behind. So, basically, what I'm getting at, is the fact that Castiel is the only person in the position to make the same kind of sacrifice for Dean that Dean made for Sam and to do it for the same reasons. And that, someone loving him for who he is (not what he does or what he kills or how many people he saves) enough to give up everything (a really huge everything as God is the Ultimate Father) for him, is the only thing I think that can save him. Otherwise...he's sliding to the dark side faster than Sam is because at least Sam believes he can use his powers for good.

...if that makes sense. *waves Dean/Castiel flag like mad* Dude, if anyone asks me why I ship Dean/Castiel, that is why. ♥

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I had a feeling you'd have a different take on this! <3

The part that Dean represses so hard for Sam's sake enjoyed finally being able to screw someone else over for a change.

There is so much truth in this statement, somewhere. In fact that whole paragraph had me shivering a little because yes, I can see where you're coming from; I can see that part of Dean too. Everyone's got their darker side, but perhaps it's fitting that the best people -- the ones who are most "good" -- have some of the darkest ones simply because of everything they've been through. But Dean tries so hard to fight it, to be the good person he wishes he could be, that I can't help but think he'd continue trying even if he went back down, at least for a little while. Especially since he seems to genuinely regret having turned into a monster who enjoyed the torturing -- I think he'd think it was inevitable but try to resist for awhile anyway.

For some reason I can't stop thinking about Dumbledore saying it's the choices we make that make us who we are, but that's neither here nor there. *laughs* Except I sort of wish Castiel would say that to him, to make him see he's no longer that monster he was in Hell.

I absolutely love those parallels between Castiel and pre-Hell!Dean. They're in such a unique position to really understand each other, which sort of amazes me considering how different they are at first glance and how different they should be. But, wow, I hadn't really thought of them in that light before -- Castiel being to Dean what Dean was/is to Sam. That makes so much sense and you're right, if anything can save Dean, it's being loved like that by Castiel. But on the other hand, if it happens too soon, or it happens for reasons Dean can't see, if Dean's allowed a chance to think that it's his fault Castiel fell (either literally or metaphorically), it could also have the potential to make things worse. :( Just like Sammy almost broke and was so guilt-ridden he tried to trade his own soul for Dean's, Dean might feel that way about Castiel..

*waves Dean/Castiel flag too*! ♥

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Sure, Alistair was disappointed, but I think it would fuck with Dean's head the most if he was given that choice again and he did break again, and if Hell is about nothing else, it's about that. Having that chance to break and doing it again would probably be the worst kind of Hell for Dean, so I don't think Alistair would pass up the chance to play with him like that.

I guess you probably see Alistair as trying to.. cultivate Dean to follow in his footsteps, almost, whereas I see Alistair as just having fun and dishing out the worst possible Hell to Dean that he could, namely making him become exactly what he hated most.

[darksilvercat.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking that Dean is actually completely and utterly terrified of going back to hell, (Yellow Fever) he's terrified of dying full-stop because he thinks that's where he's headed (look at how he hides in 4.11 when he hears the girl kill Ted).

Having said that, I don't think he'd dive right back in with the torture, nor do I think he'd hold out for years. I think he feels he deserves to be in hell, but once he gets there, once it all comes flooding back, he'll do his damnedest but he'll break easier this time because he knows it's the only way to escape.

This is of course, assuming that he'd even go back to the same corner of Hell. After daring to be rescued and continue fighting them, trying to stop the apocalypse and all, the demons would probably just come up with brand new physical and mental tortures worse than he's ever experienced. And that's saying something.....

Mind you, if a demon dragged him away right now, I don't think Castiel or his brief salvation would be of much use to his obviously shattered faith. This needs to be rectified by Castiel pretty darn quickly, plzkthnx writers? The angels have made it clear that Dean is replaceable, so he's not going to be holding out hope for a rescue.

It's really sad, Dean finally comes to know that God does exist, and the only thing this knowledge, does for him is build a fragile faith that is shattered soon after. (One of my favourite moments in 4.11 was when he said 'if it's the last Godforsaken thing I do'.) Oh Dean. He really needs hugs. He needs hugs and salvation and redemption and hugs and forgiveness and moar hugs, and hugs from Sam and hugs from Castiel and maybe some hot sexin' from Castiel while they're at it.

*is sad for Dean and wants Castiel to snuggle him tightly*

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I'm prepared to let Yellow Fever slide because the whole point of it was to literally scare victims to death, but now that I think of it, I completely agree about that moment in 4.11! It's not something I'd thought of in that light before, but when it really comes down to it, Dean is pretty terrified of dying, isn't he? Which makes his near-suicidal moves even more heartbreaking. D:

I can't think of anything worse than turning him into the monster he hates most again, because he's made his entire life (both lives before and especially after Hell) about saving and taking care of other people, but I guess that's why I don't rule over Hell, huh? :))

if a demon dragged him away right now, I don't think Castiel or his brief salvation would be of much use to his obviously shattered faith

Yeah, me either. D: Which is why we need more Castiel eps ASAP. I'm ready to watch their relationship begin to heal Dean already, damnit! :P I guess to be fair it has begun already, but they've made so little progress so far that it could easily be reversed.

Aww, Dean. If something happens now to make Dean believe Castiel and God have given up on him, it's almost worse, knowing for a fact that they're there and he isn't good enough for them. At least before, he didn't think they existed and thus couldn't possibly be disappointed in him, but now.. D: Oh, Dean. He and Castiel both need hugs, so plz to be getting on that, writers!

[seraphim-grace.livejournal.com]

do you know, maybe it's just me, but in a world where reality is twisted (Hell) why the hell would you believe anything you saw there

lets look at the evidence, Dean is being tortured and being his usual charming self - and then one day, totally out of the blue, it becomes too much
now lets think they do the same thing to him for thirty years and it doesn't work, right, they stretch time
what if he never broke
bear with me
what if they just altered the reality so Dean thought that he had, what if in this altered reality (somethign we know they can do) Alaisdair tried another form of torture by showing Dean how he liked it, otherwise why would he constantly remind dean of his potential, he's rubbing it in
I mean physical torture clearly didn't work, alaisdair flogged the grave of the horse on that one, so mental torture - and Dean has based his life on saving folk, the bit in the djinn ep that messes with him - that he can't cope with - is that all the people he saved died.
i just tihnk it's not necessarily as simple as he broke, when thinking he broke is the torture and unless alaisdair is a thug with a knife he clearly changed tactics - quite ingenious tactics too I might add.
He used Dean's own humanity against him

anyway it just strikes me as odd that dean suddenly out of the blue breaks
and if he had truly broken, if he had enjoyed it that much, he'd have carried on upstairs

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Wow. So different and fascinating!

I really love this idea, actually, but there's something I can't quite get past -- getting off that rack was Dean's choice, and I don't know how Alistair could trick him into believing he made that choice? Or how he could trick Dean into thinking he liked it, if there's honestly no dark, hidden part of Dean that's actually that fucked up and sadistic. It seems that, even in Hell, Dean had free will, and that's where all the guilt comes from.

The illusion of free will shouldn't be impossible by any means, and if Alistair can pull that off that would be freaking awesome in a terrible sort of way and it would make so much sense, but I can't, as of yet, wrap my mind around how he would go about creating that illusion.

[goth-clark.livejournal.com]

I was surprised. As soon as I saw that post, I thought 'Oh oh, wank', but it's been interesting reading what everybody has to say. For me it's so obvious that Castiel is falling in love with Dean, but that's just me. :)

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Me too! Her issue isn't with Castiel falling in love, though, it's with Dean falling in love. She agreed with me that the leap from platonic to romantic is possible given enough pre-slash, but she doesn't believe it because she's never read it. Which is fine, I get it, and in fact if I were completely honest I haven't seen fic myself which really tackles every detail of that process head on in a believable manner without glossing over anything, but I guess I just see what I want to see. :D

[katrinaswift.livejournal.com]

OMG BBIDK. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW. D: D:

[tracy.livejournal.com]

SORRY FOR ASKING. D: D:

[commodoresexual.livejournal.com]

You know, I voted one way and then thought to myself, man, how little faith do I have in Dean? Dean would last - because Dean would have to - because it's either that or go mad.

And even if Castiel didn't come for him - at this point - SAM would. Sam would take his demonic powers, become the prince of Hell, drag his brother out and toss him to the Earth ... just to never see that look on his brother's face again.

And hee, I am reqq'd.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

You can always change your vote, I think. But anyway, he already went mad once, and he enjoyed it. :(

Hahahha, that would kill Dean even more than staying in Hell, to have his baby brother become the prince of Hell for him. And anyway it seems like Sam already tried, but only an angel can do it, right? Says all the lore.

♥!

[kalikahuntress.livejournal.com]

I just want to thank you again for starting up insightful, wank free discussions about SPN.
Also, writers need to allow Castiel to prove to Dean a little more why he should trust him, they are dragging things out too much again.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

My LJ will always be wank-free. :) <3

Srsly. All I can say is they better be leading up to something good and not just putting Castiel off and yanking our chains.

[writingpathways.livejournal.com]

Well, a) I don't think Dean's going to go back to Hell if he dies unless he makes another deal for whatever reason the stupid idiot would do that -- but he would. b) in regards to that I know the Angels threatened him with it but when he said yes and called their bluff they threatened Sam instead -- they don't want Dean there and I don't think it'd be his destination any longer.

However if he was sent back -- to be honest at this point, where he is at, I'm not sure what would happen to him in Hell with the torture that would occur. Not sure at all.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I'd like to think that too, though it seems possible for demons to drag him back to Hell? And in any case I'm sure Alistair could do it, if he felt so inclined and if he got past the angels. Considering his last showdown with Cas.. D:

It's a tough question, I just wondered 'cause Dean seems far more nonchalant about the prospect than he should.

[meanheans]

You posed a helluva question. I like the idea that this time around he'd be fortified with the approval of God and at least one angel and he'd *know* the reaction of Sam to the torture and it would all coalesce into a stronger will. Except that I just can't quite buy it. All you have to do is break once, to know how easy it would be to break again. No matter how much stronger you are the second time around, no matter if you have back-up... the fear of failing is that much stronger and the fall will be that much further and it's a lot more pressure to keep yourself whole and to keep yourself fighting. Dean is tremendously stubborn and it worked in his favor the first time, but I just don't think it could keep him going another 30 years. I think he'd be stronger and more hopeful in the beginning of his second internment, but it would burn out quicker. This can't happen again / I can't take it again / I can't DO this all over again, that's the roughest thing to put anyone through. I love Dean with all the broken pieces of my heart, but baby can't do that twice. Hell is too much, even for him.

[tracy.livejournal.com]

This can't happen again / I can't take it again / I can't DO this all over again, that's the roughest thing to put anyone through.

This, yes. I agree with this so much. It was traumatic enough the first time, and that's the understatement of the century, but if he had to face the prospect of another thirty years.. that thought alone would break a lesser man before he even got back down there, God and angels or no. Dean may be a greater man and be able to stare the prospect down, but I agree if it actually came to it he would break more easily. D:

[big-heart-june.livejournal.com]

I agree with the comment directly above me, bb. If he were dragged into hell again, which personally I don't think will happen again...I don't think Kripke will go there again... I don't think he'd be strong enough emotionally to go through years of torture again, I think being back in again would absolutely wreck him , look what fragile shape he's in now, and break any tiny bit of self-esteem he has left. He'll shut down completely and go back to doing what ultimately 'saved' him the last time around...*sigh* :(( :((

[tracy.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to agree on a psychological level, but I'm just a little :| over Dean appearing to be more nonchalant about the prospect of Hell this season than he was before he even went there last season. Trying to be stoic about it is a common factor in both seasons, but that aside, shouldn't it be the other way around? :(

[prongsy.livejournal.com]

I am of the opinion that Dean would fight harder not to "break" (and to me, the definition of "breaking", in Dean terms, would be "inflicting torture on others", since that seems to be his greatest psychological scar), which put me in the minority of voters (I picked the "more than 30 years" option).

True, he's afraid to be sent back, but I see him as more repentant than anything else. That his fear was spawned from the things he was forced to do and how much he regrets/hates himself for giving in. I'll site 4x11 as the best example of Dean's need to be forgiven. His desperation to save the boy is easily a manifestation of a misplaced urge to gain absolution. If he can save people on Earth then he might be able to find forgiveness in himself for torturing people in Hell. He is so convinced of this, he argues with the father to continue to be the rescuer. I highly doubt it's because he gave his word to the dad, I think it's more he gave his word to himself. He needs to save people. He finds purpose in it (ie, the nonstop hunting after the events of 4x10).

Add to it that both times we see him break down with Sammy over Hell, it's not over his own torture but of his coming to torture and then his admission of liking it. This is consistent with the fear we see in his eyes when Alistair brings up Dean's skills AND when the only thing that can get Dean to buckle is Uriel's threat of Sammy taking the downtown express. Sure, it may have been a bluff to offer his own damnation in Anna's place, but that he can't allow Sammy to go (and even that he'd be willing to make the bluff for Anna to begin with), further demonstrates Dean's need to protect.

It can be argued, then, that the true torture of Dean Winchester is not the pain that they inflicted physically, but the damage they dealt psychologically. That his fear never is of how much it hurt but more of how he eventually broke. And therein lies my answer. XD

I don't think he'd suddenly have any overarching belief in God to preserve him, but more his need to prove something to himself. If Castiel gives him anything, it would be the strength to believe in his own goodness. So that, should the time ever arise for Dean to go back to Hell, it is this belief that would give him strength. Couple it with his fear of breaking again, and I think Dean could hold out even longer.

I find the idea that he'd break more quickly because it's easier demeaning and not at all in keeping with the character as he has been developed this season (or, really, all seasons). Sure, it might save him the pain of the wrack, but if anything, I think the pain that torments him most is that of what he was driven to do. So, if they think avoiding the wrack would drive him to give in, then I think avoiding the giving in would make him take the wrack!

[tracy.livejournal.com]

Hello, I'm so glad you came back to comment! <3

I think you are absolutely right in that Dean's true torture was the breaking and the dishing out of pain and the sick pleasure he got from that, but that came after the physical pain stopped. If he, while in Hell, felt that having broken was worse than being tortured himself, wouldn't he have unbroken and gotten back on the rack?

Right now he's back on Earth and there is no physical torture to deal with anymore, so of course he dwells only on the psychological torture of having given in. That's the only thing there is to regret. But who's really to say that what he's experiencing now is worse than the physical pain if we've never seen him endure that physical pain?

Reading your comment has, as it usually does, made me think of something else, though. Perhaps more than his fear of how much it hurt and how he eventually broke, Dean fears having to make that choice. That same choice Alistair made him make every single goddamn day for thirty years -- that's 10,950 times! 10,950 times Dean was forced to either sentence himself to another day of unthinkably excruciating pain or lose himself and everything he is and wants to be. It would have been much easier, I think, if he had no control at all. I can't remember if there was a point I wanted to make with this regarding how long it would take for him to break, probably not. Just throwing it out there.

All of this discussion, and I still haven't come to a conclusion yet about what I really think. *laughs* It's an interesting discussion, though, to be sure.

I forgot to add -- yes, I think Castiel can give him the strength to believe in his own goodness, and that would indeed go a long way in Hell, but it hasn't happened yet. If Dean were to go back right now, it would be without that strength from Cas. :(